Here’s what he said in a post on his telegram channel:
🤫 A story shared by Jack Dorsey, the founder of Twitter, uncovered that the current leaders of Signal, an allegedly “secure” messaging app, are activists used by the US state department for regime change abroad 🥷
🥸 The US government spent $3M to build Signal’s encryption, and today the exact same encryption is implemented in WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, Google Messages and even Skype. It looks almost as if big tech in the US is not allowed to build its own encryption protocols that would be independent of government interference 🐕🦺
🕵️♂️ An alarming number of important people I’ve spoken to remarked that their “private” Signal messages had been exploited against them in US courts or media. But whenever somebody raises doubt about their encryption, Signal’s typical response is “we are open source so anyone can verify that everything is all right”. That, however, is a trick 🤡
🕵️♂️ Unlike Telegram, Signal doesn’t allow researchers to make sure that their GitHub code is the same code that is used in the Signal app run on users’ iPhones. Signal refused to add reproducible builds for iOS, closing a GitHub request from the community. And WhatsApp doesn’t even publish the code of its apps, so all their talk about “privacy” is an even more obvious circus trick 💤
🛡 Telegram is the only massively popular messaging service that allows everyone to make sure that all of its apps indeed use the same open source code that is published on Github. For the past ten years, Telegram Secret Chats have remained the only popular method of communication that is verifiably private 💪
Original post: https://t.me/durov/274
You can verify builds on android. That’s just an iphone problem.
Use Grapheneos if you need good security and privacy
Yes, sorry, but I can’t take something seriously if every paragraph begins and ends with an emoji. I know it’s dismissive, but all my Facebook lunatic conspiracy theory alarm bells are blaring.
It’s more normal in Russian-speaking Web.
Shouldn’t trust this guy anyway, it’s VK’s founder talking.
Telegram: We keep you private. Now enter your phone number to sign up.
That breaks anonymity, not privacy
Signal does the same
I didn’t think that’s required anymore?
You still need a phone number to register an account as far as I could tell when I did the other day. You no longer need to share your number with any contacts and can set it so noone who has your number can look you up on signal. You can optionally set a unique alphanumeric ‘username’ instead to hand to people to look you up. But yea, Signal still requires you to give them and their authenticatian service (through sms code) your phone number.
Are there any equivalents that don’t need a phone number?
Yes, XMPP, a long-standing protocol that’s also not a walled garden, doesn’t require a phone number or even a phone. For android I use the Conversations client combined with Dino on computers. Currently logged in to a handful of devices synchronously. You can choose what server to make an account on; conversations.im I found to be reliable. Drawback is Signal doesn’t let you bridge to it from anywhere outside of Signal. So I have accounts on both.
Thanks for the clarification.
Np
Imagine using telegram… It’s worse than whatsapp
I wonder if their recent blog post promoting conspiracy theorists and right-wing people turned away more people from telegram than they expected and now they feel the need to spread FUD against their competitors.
I missed this one, have a link?
This is the blog post: https://telegram.org/blog/my-profile-and-15-more
This is a post highlighting the problematic content of the blog post: https://plush.city/@PsyChuan/112336464469767051Though now that I’m more awake I think it’s probably unrelated, I haven’t seen this circulated around that much.
1488 and other Nazi numbers are, eh, just normal jokes in Russia.
But in general yes, I think this is on purpose. Probably want some people think Telegram is kinda counterculture and more secure. It’s not secure at all, of course.
The article about Maher is written by a conservative who can’t accept that we can limit individual freedom to reach true collective freedom.
Also he wrote for FoxNews lol
Stop spreading propaganda please, it’s just a CEO trying to shill its product
I find it weird how any discussion about Signal will inevitably have a bunch of people piling on dismissing any criticisms of it. Believing that Signal is perfect has become like a religion at this point. Whatever people might think of Telegram is completely irrelevant when it comes to the question of whether Signal is actually a secure tool or not.
The fact that people working on Signal have direct ties to US intelligence agencies cannot be ignored. No can the fact that Signal is a centralized system based in US. These two things alone should make everybody very concerned.
Let’s all just be adults and start using Matrix
Why all the emojis? Why can’t people just write an article?
It’s like a memetic form of neoteny, “the retention of juvenile traits into adulthood.”
I’m waiting for the day when a politician responds to a motion on the floor with “bruh.”
he is maybe flexing the “custom emojis” feature of telegram, see original post
It seems like you’re passionate about emojis
One is open source and you can check the code while the other is not completely open source and uses proprietary encryption. That’s right, proprietary encryption.
Sounds like someone is mad that security experts would rather trust a tried-and-true encryption standard over Telegram’s encryption which is known to not be anywhere near as secure as the Signal protocol.
Pavel resorting to outright slander to promote Telegram is not something I expected to see.
he does raise very valid points about reproducible builds, which should be a priority if your product is security
Edit: oh @Wolflink below points out that such builds are available for Android, but iOS has issues stemming from Apple and not Signal. This then begs the question, why is Telegram reproducible on iOS?
You need some loops to jump through to get there. But that can be achieved for Signal as well, if you check the discussions regarding reproducible builds for Signal’s iOS client, you’ll see that people just decided it is not worth the hassle to push it through.
This then begs the question, why is Telegram reproducible on iOS?
Is it really.
that’s indeed what I am asking
Sounds like someone is mad that security experts would rather trust a tried-and-true encryption standard over Telegram’s encryption which is known to not be anywhere near as secure as the Signal protocol.
There’s an issue in Russia with graduates of a few of the “kinda top” universities considering themselves elite, but not quite being as qualified as they think.
Durov’s brother won a few programming competitions for highschoolers. Because of that apparently he should be considered something in cryptography. For people thinking like this at least.
Pavel resorting to outright slander to promote Telegram is not something I expected to see.
Why, it’s very much like him.
Maybe fix Telegrams privacy problems.
https://www.404media.co/this-tool-shows-some-telegram-users-approximate-physical-location/
I can’t read it because of the paywall but IIRC (based on a similar article) that was such a nothing-burger issue.
People turned on an entirely optional (I think off by default setting) for some feature that allowed discovery of users by location … and shocked pikachu they could be tracked or something like that.
It’s not nothing if Telegram makes people believe they only share their location in a limited manner, but instead broadcast it to the whole world. That’s a serious breach of trust. I don’t know why Telegram users keep making excuses for that platform.
I don’t know why Telegram users keep making excuses for that platform.
Honestly? Because the others are just so bad.
- Element has an extremely clunky UX and uses Electron. The other Matrix app implementations are incomplete buggy messes.
- Signal can’t sync old messages to the desktop, uses a messy Electron interface, and lacks a bunch of features/polish I’ve come to expect.
- Discord doesn’t even pay lip service to privacy and uses a similarly doesn’t invest in native apps.
- Threema has been saying that cross-platform/multi-device connectivity is coming for like 2+ years and has had nothing but the most minor of unexciting features added.
- WhatsApp is run by Meta, has a crappy desktop experience, and has had several serious security vulnerabilities.
- Jami is … extremely glitchy.
- Session is basically Signal backed by a Crypto platform.
If someone took Telegram’s UX and feature set and paired that with Signal’s approach of “everything is encrypted”, that would be a winner. I kinda hope someday Telegram just does that and moves everything to E2EE. When Telegram was launched E2EE for group chats/at scale wasn’t really a thing … now it’s not nearly as novel but nobody has deployed E2EE with a feature set like Telegram’s.
It’s not nothing if Telegram makes people believe they only share their location in a limited manner, but instead broadcast it to the whole world.
That’s not even what happens by the way. It’s just that you can spoof a device into random locations and eventually figure out where someone is.
What polish and features is signal missing?
- Signal can’t sync old messages to the desktop
- Persistent voice rooms
- Custom emoji
- Animated emoji
- Location sharing
- Chat folders
- Topics/rooms for larger group chats
- Support for larger group chats
- Quoted replies (i.e., quote part of a reply or create an arbitrary quote block)
- Code snippets
- Message forwarding
- Polls
- Animations in the UI
- Detailed custom theming
- Chat room theming
- A content index (e.g., view only the files, links, videos, etc that were sent in this chat)
- Group invite links to people you don’t have in your contacts
- Channels (i.e., micro-ish blogging)
- A nice bot API
- Subjective UI/UX changes to put things in more reasonable places (e.g, why can’t I right click on a chat to pin it in the desktop client, why is the Electron menu bar shown by default)
And probably several other things I’ve forgotten because … basically nobody I know is still using Signal.
Thanks for the detailed reply. Signal does have location sharing and invite links, FWIW.
Signal’s location share AFAIK can’t be a live location share (which is useful during events like amusement park trips and stuff)
They have invite links to group chats? I don’t know how that would work
I mean it’s pretty bad to practice mass surveillance.
A “toot” isn’t a very persuasive piece of journalism.
I can verify that it absolutely impacts groups run by queer communities in the Gulf, because I was in one such group that was monitored and shut down by Etidal.
That claim needs a lot more investigation and context. At the very least, it needs investigated by a credible third party.
Also, do you even know what the feature you’re criticizing is? A “channel”? Because it’s not even really a part of the messaging portion of Telegram. It’s basically an in-app blogging platform.
She links to a news article: https://www.saudigazette.com.sa/article/641746/SAUDI-ARABIA/Etidal-Telegram-remove-over-16-million-extremist-contents-in-early-2024
I don’t think Telegram denies doing mass surveillance. They might deny targeting queer groups and claim to only target extremist, whatever that means.
That news article talks nothing about targeting groups unfairly and only talks about removal of extremist activity from what’s a social media platform (which is standard practice for all social media platforms). Specially that article talks about targeting “combating the online propaganda of ISIS, Hay’at Tahrir Al-Sham, and Al-Qaeda” which I believe is uncontroversial for all decent and reasonable people.
I’ll stick to Threema and Session, and SimpleX for those who use it. But thanks.
Go read the GitHub issue. The main difficulty in implementing reproducible builds is the code signing Apple requires as well as other tweaks Apple makes to modify the binary from what the dev submits to what gets downloaded from the App Store. Note that Android already has reproducible builds. Also the reason the GitHub issue was closed wasn’t “refusal” to implement the feature, they wanted to move the discussion to their forums.
How does Telegram ensure reproducible builds for iOS? Or is Dorsey lying
Who knows how apple decides to do anything? There may be some really stupid arbitrary reason apple modifies signal but not telegram just because apple insists on being difficult. If you don’t trust apple don’t use an iPhone and just download it on android.
that’s not a fantastic answer to my question…
You don’t need a backdoor in signal to bypass its encryption.
All you need is to exploit the phone and wait for them to open or use signal.
If you think your phone is safe from the NSA or similar services, I got some bad news for you.
I’m 100% secure, I have Nord VPN
This comment sponsored by NordVPN
I forgot to post an affiliate link and explain how routing all your internet traffic though one company equals security
All you need is to exploit the phone and wait for them to open or use signal.
Physical access is root access. But just because you can’t make something NSA-proof dosen’t mean you can’t make it bloody difficult to break into.
There’s been enough zero day remote exploits that there’s bound to be more.
Pretty sure there’s more than 1 about receiving an SMS and the payload rooting the phone and you not even knowing it happened. At least 1 but I think 2 or more.
Something about a malicious image also rooting a phone.
It goes on and on and phones don’t always get security updates.
You can do your best, but then longer you use a given phone the higher the risk. That’s why people switch out phones frequently when doing shady or important shit
That works for every IM.
It’d almost like… phones aren’t secure.
