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People can do whatever they like, and heck I find CLI intimidating sometimes, but I’m always learning something new a little bit at a time.
I’m tired of seeing it in every field of interest that has any kind of payoff, whether art or FOSS.
“I’m [(almost always) a guy] who (maybe has kids and) has a job. I stopped learning anything after I got my job-paper / degree / highschool diploma. I shouldn’t have to learn anything anymore. I am happy to shell out disposable sad-salary-man money (and maybe my soul idk) to any mega-corp that offers me a “create desired outcome button” without me having to think too much. It’s [current year]! I shouldn’t have to think anymore! Therefore Linux is super behind and only for nerds and I desire its benefits so much that I leave this complaint anywhere these folks gather so they know what I deserve.”
Agh. I gotta go before this rant gets too long lol
Yesterday I showed a local business owner how he could set up the signboards and menus in his shop using a raspberry pi. The guy is a windows guy. the second he saw the boot screen he balked. I told him they needed to be set up one time and the rest of the time he could manage them with a windows program (winscp). I don’t expect to hear back.
They fear CLI.
Another local guy had a huge archive of forestry images. They were all folders that had been renamed for the location and time they were taken but underneath they were all the standard filenames you get from a digital camera. It was nearly twenty years of pictures and he was getting five figure quotes to rename them all to match the folder names. I told him I could build a script to do it so he brought me one of his backups and I promptly did it using CLI before I was going to build a script. The next day he calls to say he talked it over with one of his vendors and they decided to drop their price down to a two thousand dollars. He wasn’t interesting in me doing it. I hung up and a few years later when he called me to come fix something someone had messed up I hung up again.
I have no doubt the people he was talking to did something similar probably using bash scripts. So now when I tell someone I can sort out their file naming or some other sorting task I don’t let them see how I do it.
Where do I get the $2000 bash script gig?
I was gonna charge the guy 500 dollars to rename thirty thousand images to match the directory names. Since the guy had switched cameras several times it would have involved more than one simple script but I wasn’t being paid for the script. I was being paid to do the job. Except my bash prompt scared the guy. The truth of it is he used me to leverage the company that specialized in data recovery into lowering their price down to a still absurd but much smaller amount.
Its not the first time I’ve seen it but when they do something like that to me they burn a bridge.A related scam is charging absurd amount to convert and catalog microfiche to images or PDF’s. Granted a machine to do this quickly and efficiently is in the 10 to 20 grand range. The process is boring and repetitious and in no way worth the amount some companies want to charge.
Works other way around too
sudo aptitude reinstall '~i'It’s wild that Linux stans are such masochists that they believe they can convert people to loving abuse, instead of just making the interface better to attract users.
Didn’t even know there were such a thing as evangelists for Windows
There are Windows evangelists?? 🤦🏽♀️
Are there people who are mad at other people for using the terminal? Is this really a thing that exists?
I think you linked the wrong post
To me apt is confusing but that’s because I’ve become so used to pacman. The only package manager that comes close to pacman for me is xbps.
Yeah apt tends to shit itself very often. I don’t like how it’s actually two different programs (dpkg and apt) glued together with perl and python. It all feels too fragile. A friend once tried updating a package, and it failed because… he was issuing the apt command from with a python virtual environment. Can’t say for pacman because I’ve never used arch, but xbps is just one set of self-contained binaries, which feels much more robust. Alpine’s APK fits that bill as well, lovely little package manager. Tho I guess apt predates both of those, so it’s not a fair comparison. Someone had to make those mistakes for the first time.
I also really dislike the Debian/Ubuntu culture of fucking around with the sources file to add other people’s repositories on top of the distro-default ones (ubuntu calls this PPA). It’s a good idea in theory, but in practice those third party repos always fuck up in some way and brick your package manager. Just search for “apt Failed to fetch” in your favourite internet search engine, and you will see hundreds of people confused about it. You can do it with almost any package manager, but for some reason it’s mainly the debian/ubuntu people who like shooting themselves in the foot like this.
Speaking from experience… Yes. Absolutely yes.
In a pretty high end high tech company, there’s still lots of people who see a terminal and think “ha hah, they are still stuck in old mainframe stuff like you used to see in the movies”.
My team determined long ago that we have to have two user experiences for our team to be taken seriously.
A GUI to mostly convince our own managers that it’s serious stuff. Also to convince clients who have execs make the purchasing decisions without consulting the people that will actually use it.
An API, mostly to appease people who say they want API, occasionally used.
A CLI to wrap that API, which is what 99% of the customers use 95% of the time (this target demographic is niche.
Admittedly, there’s a couple of GUI elements we created that are handy compared to what we can do from CLI, from visualizations to a quicker UI to iterate on some domain specific data. But most of the “get stuff done” is just so much more straightforward to do in CLI.
I don’t think so, but I do criticize not having an option, that is why I stopped using Cisco personally and professionally, some things are fast using the cli, some things just need an Ui, you need both.
Like I get and appreciate the CLI and for networking, that’s pretty much all I’m using anyway, but I am shocked that enterprise networking doesn’t even bother to do any GUI. Once upon a time Mellanox Onyx bothered to do a GUI and I could see some people light up, finally an enterprise switch that would let them do some stuff from a GUI. Then nVidia bought them and Cumulus and ditched their GUI.
There’s this kind of weird “turn in your geek card” culture about rejecting GUIs, but there’s a good amount of the market that want at least the option, even if they frankly are a bit ashamed to admit it. You definitely have to move beyond GUI if you want your tasks to scale, but not every engagement witih the technology needs to scale.
A cli is a ui. I know that’s pedantic but this is Linux memes
another name for CLI is the TUI (Terminal User Interface)
See, in my mind, a CLI is a line buffer-based interface, whereas a TUI is an interactive character-based interface.
sedorbashis CLI andviorrogueis TUI.I think of tui as “text user interface” and use it as a broad category but mostly for more advanced clis that have a graphical quality to them despite being text based, such as ranger or slack-term. Some tuis even have mouse controls!
You make a fair point
I have a coworker that likes to pick fun at my usage of CLI tools. He said it’s confusing “why would I use a terminal when the GUI was made after?”. They vehemently hate anytime they have to work with CLI.
I watched them use an FTP program to download and change one value in a .conf file. Like they downloaded the file, opened it in notepad++, changed one thing, saved it, reuploaded / overretten the original. I tried to show them how to just use nano and got told their way was “better since you could ensure the file was replaced”. Its okay, I’ve secretly caught them using it a couple times lol
Fortunately, Linux terminals are gorgeous and easy to use. I never wanted to use Windows’ com because it was so ugly and user-hostile. I know Powershell is a thing now, but it still looks ugly to me.
Not really. But you know, gotta find ways to feel smarter than other people so here we go.
And those Windows evangelists! Don’t we all know 'em with their strong opinions about operating systems? *shakes fist at cloud*
Yeah you just can’t be in a server room anymore without some dude trying to sell you on Office365 and Cortana, sigh.
Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and savior, the Microsoft App Store, and his enlightened prophet, Candy Crush Saga?
Usually it’s the other way around
There are definitely people who think it is reasonable to memorize button locations and 10 levels of menus in GUI programs but would rather go into cardiac arrest than use something like
program --option input-file output-file.thing with gui is you don’t need to memorize button locations and menus. If you do it’s poor layout. Good gui lets you find things you didn’t know you were looking for intuitively, without external resources or manual. CLI requires you to know what exactly you are doing and is impossible to use without external resources. Nothing against terminal but unless you know what you are doing and every command required to complete that action, it’s ass. If gui was so bad and cli was so good, guis would not be used by anyone.
The alternative to memorization is the analog to “hunt and peck typing” where you just search the whole fucking screen/program.
While you don’t need to memorize button locations and menus, the frustration is that it takes longer, and memorizing those details slightly mitigates. It’s torture helping someone do something while they hunt for the UI element they need to get to the next level of hierarchy. They will do it, in time, but it just feels like an eternity.
The main issue in GUI versus CLI is that GUI narrows the available options at a time. This is great, for special purpose usage. But if you have complex stuff to do, a CLI can provide more instant access to a huge chunk of capabilities, and provide a framework for connecting capabilities together as well as a starting point for making repeatable content, or for communicating in a forum how to fix something. Just run command “X” instead of a series of screenshots navigating to the bowels of a GUI to do some obscure thing.
Of course UI people have generally recognized the power and usefulness of text based input to drive actions and any vaguely powerful GUI has to have some “CLI-ness” to it.
Sure terminal can be better in a few cases but the fact you are typing this from a guy browser on a gui os speaks for itself.
Of course my terminals outnumber my browser tabs by about 3:1 right now. Commenting on an internet site needs neither scale nor complexity and a WebUI is fine for that.
thing with terminal is you don’t need to memorize commands, syntax and options. If you do it’s poor design. Good code lets you find things you didn’t know you were looking for intuitively, without external resources or manual. Gui requires you to know what exactly you are doing and is impossible to use without external resources. Nothing against gui but unless you know what you are doing and every click required to complete that action, it’s ass. If term was so bad and gui was so good, terminals would not be used by anyone.
I mean you dont go around copy pasting device ids and running buttons for 20 minutes to connect your device through gui when it is done with 2 commands in the term even by someone who has never used a pc before.
Ftfy buddy
Okay then how do I mount my drive through terminal and set it to automount every time and change it’s name to appear as “disk 3” everywhere?
man genfstab
genfstab whateveroptionsyouwant
Now give me all the X and Y coordinates of where i would click on my QHD screen for your example in gui plz
Your guide did literally nothing other than return errors. Seems like even you don’t know how to do this. I like the terminal but you need to touch grass at least once a year my friend.
Yawn, sure sure.
Thats a lot of text without a single x y coordinate buddy. Try harder while touching that grass, won’t ya?
man genfstab gave an error? Neither CLI nor GUI is gonna help with simply not having something installed that the guide assumed.
To be fair if you want to learn your options (without properly informing yourself using a manual) tab complete can be useful if implemented.
Also most programs come with their manuals so I’d barely call it external. The manuals are also usually better than what I’ve come to expect from the text to go with buttons in a GUI.
Knowing what commands are required is always going to be necessary but there’s also not that many worth remembering.
As far as I’m concerned “windows key, start typing the name of the application” or “CMD+space, start typing the name of the application” is the right way to handle GUI. Apple nailed it with Spotlight and it’s vastly improved Windows and a variety of Linux DE’s
Uh… Do you think spotlight was first doing search by typing from a hotkey…?
What you’re describing are basic menus and icon search. I honestly don’t get what you’re getting at with this at all, maybe I’m just dumb.
It wasn’t the first, no. But it was the first that was commonplace and implemented well enough that others almost immediately adopted it.
It’s the same as the iPad. Tablets existed before the ipad. Nobody bought them until apple created a market for them. It’s their biggest strength as a company.
I suppose the point is that the way people interact with GUIs actually resembles how they interact with CLIs. They type from memory instead of hunting through a nested hierarchy to get where they were going. There was a time when Desktop UIs considered text input to be almost a sin against ease of use, an overcorrection for trying to be “better” than CLI. So you were made to try to remember which category was deignated to hold an application that you were looking for, or else click through a search dialog that only found filenames, and did so slowly.
Now a lot of GUIs incorporate more textual considerations. The ‘enter text to launch’ is one example, and a lot of advanced applications now have a “What do you want to do?” text prompt. The only UI for LLMs is CLI, really. One difference is GUI text entry tends to be a bit “fuzzier” compared to a traditional CLI interface which is pretty specific and unforgiving.
Ahh I hate that windows does that. It makes it impossible to do anything else with the super key.
Super+D is what I use but anything but just tap that button and flash your screen with a menu you didn’t want is great.
Yes, thqt’s a real thing. They use it as an excuse to dog on linux distros & say “Muh linux not great yet”
Maybe I misinterpreted the meme, I thought the yelling guy is also a Linux user.
It’s not that they are mad others use CLI, it’s that they’re mad that Linux devs regularly stop creating P&CI features, instead opting for CLI with no P&CI equivalent action.
It’s kind of obvious why - CLI is alright very flexible right out of the box, and it takes much less work to add functionality within CLI rather than creating it for the P&CI.
At the same time, I understand the P&CI folk’s frustration, since one of biggest obstacles to getting more people on Linux is the lack of P&CI solutions, and the fact that many actions on Linux are explained solely via CLI.
CLI folks have invested the time to use terminals effectively and view overuse of the P&CI as beneath them, and P&CI folks have no interest in dumping time into learning CLI to do something they could do on Windows with P&CI.
Pardon my ignorance but what does P&CI stand for?
Edit: nvm got it I think it’s Point & Click Interface
Correct, point and click interface
they’re mad that Linux devs regularly stop creating P&CI features, instead opting for CLI with no P&CI equivalent action.
I’ve never seen this?
It’s typically a completely different developer who creates the CLI first, and then one of us adds a P&C after.
So if something is brand new, sure there might be no P&C, yet.
I promise There’s no conspiracy to not have nice things. Haha.
I was specifically trying to not sound conspiratorial. I’m pointing out that it’s a matter of having learned a paradigm vs having to learn a new paradigm.
Devs have already gotten used to CLI and very rarely make full P&CI suites because of it. Even if the original Dev only did CLI for the app and someone came back and made a P&CI for that app, those P&CI interfaces are still fairly barebones. This is both a mix of devs knowing how good CLI can be and because it’s all open source volunteer work.
Layman users of P&CI-focused DEs actively avoid CLI so they don’t have to learn it. This means that using most Linux apps are something to be avoided for most Windows users, making the OS base mostly unusable for them.
To be clear, when I am talking about P&CI-focused DEs, like windows and iOS, I mean that if you cannot perform an action with the P&CI, then that action essentially does not exist for the average user. Contrast that with Linux DEs, where it’s quite common to have to directly edit configs or use the CLI to perform various actions.
As a veteran user, CLI does not bother me. I do understand the frustration of those who want some Linux DEs to become as default as Windows and iOS, because lack of P&CI does damage that effort.
This is not every app in Linux obvi, but the ones that are best at making sure the P&CI is full-flddged, are the apps that develop for windows and iOS as well as Linux - Blender, LibreOffice, Logseq, Godot, etc. The most common offenders are the utility apps, such as those that handle drivers, sound systems, DE functions, etc.
Linux is the terminal.
The GUI applications are just terminal applications where you press buttons instead of typing. Creating the buttons and UI is extra overhead for developers.
CLI folks have invested the time to use terminals effectively and view overuse of the P&CI as beneath them, and P&CI folks have no interest in dumping time into learning CLI to do something they could do on Windows with P&CI.
There are people who have learned to use Linux, using whatever tools are best for the job and people who have decided that the only way to interact with a computer is with a mouse and refuse to learn anything else.
You don’t have to swap away from Windows. But, if you choose to, know that you will have to learn a new operating system and, on Linux, this means becoming familiar with the terminal.
If you’re going to artificially limit yourself, despite the chorus of Linux users telling you otherwise, by deciding that any terminal use indicates a failure of the OS or of developers, then you should not use Linux.
It’s hard enough to learn a new OS. Artificially restricting yourself to only using your mouse is going to severely limit your ability to function.
Obviously I’m talking about the DE packages, not the kernel or CLI base. We are talking about windows users switching to linux-based DEs, which are directly trying to compete with Windows and iOS.
This is not me having issue with CLIs. I’ve been on Linux for decades. I am pointing out the perspective of those that are frustrated with Linux DEs being blatantly unready for mass-adoption, specifically because they expect layman users to learn CLI. See my previous comment and this comment for more details.
I do understand their perspective.
It’s just that their expectations do not align with reality and they’re only going to hurt their experience by thinking that there is a path to using Linux without using the terminal. Some distros do a really good job of creating something that seems like a pure GUI experience, but that illusion only lasts right up until there is a problem that the UI designers didn’t anticipate and the only way forward is to type terminal commands.
I’m not trying to be an asshole when I say this kind of thing.
It’s just disingenuous for people to recommend Linux and also say ‘Don’t worry, you won’t need the terminal’ or to foster the illusion, in new users, that their fear of the terminal is justified. I get that, of all things Linux, the most alien thing from a Windows/Smartphone user’s perspective, is a text-based interface.
It seems difficult and social media is full of people acting like the terminal is incredibly difficult to learn so people believe that they can simply opt out of using the terminal. You can’t, and trying to do so is going to make users have a horrible experience. It’d be like telling people that Windows doesn’t require a mouse, that’s possibly true but if a person artificially limits themselves in that way, they’re going to have a much harder time than they would have if they’d spend the time to use the OS properly.
This is kind of erasing the author with your description of the issue. The reason that apps eventually require CLI to complete tasks is because devs think of CLI first and then produce a stop-gap P&CI over top of it. It is explicitly how devs in the Linux environment operate which creates a gap between CLI and P&CI. If apps were developed with P&CI in mind first, with CLI added after, this would not be a problem - and we know this because of every app developed for both Windows and Linux, which lack these gaps in functionality - or lack CLI entirely.
Your stance also de-emphasizes the difficulty of learning CLI for the first time. It’s not the most difficult thing ever, but it can be fairly frustrating. It’s not something you want to deal with when just trying to unwind after work on your PC, or while you’re trying to do your job at work. I think it’s pretty reasonable most people don’t want to have to learn yet another paradigm just to do what they’ve already figured out how to with a P&CI.
Being realistic, of course, this paradigm shift is not going to happen. Linux will continue to be only a small portion of total computers used by end users because of this, and various other reasons it’s found unpalatable.
I’ve heard that KDE and GNOME, however, are both at a level now where P&CIs are all you really need. I have not tried them myself, though.
I used to be on the yelling guys side and boy was I wrong. I now write scripts to do anything repetitive, all the time and it’s great. I have a whole library of them I use and add to and improve all the time.
Yeah, I was wrong.
It always makes me kind of sad when people disparage CLI use. It’s like people thinking they don’t need to actually learn anything because they can always look up what they need to know on their phone. It seems a shame to miss so much of the richness of the experience. I found myself arguing, promoting, whatever, terminal use a few times and then realized how pointless it is. It’s like arguing with someone about what food they like. You can just hope they develop a more sophisticated palate at some point, or at least become more open-minded, but you can’t force it on them.
This was a long way to get around to saying I like that you had that change of frame and are embracing the fun of personalizing your interactions with your computer.
Thanks! Yeah, for me it’s that I have a bad memory so memorizing argument orders and things like that felt painful. Scripting is the solution! And you learn while you do it. It’s actually kind of fun to make a solid script that works between various OSes as nerdy as that is. I’ve taken a lot of typing and memorization and turned it into writing (ideally solid) software that allows me to type 1-3 words instead of 20 words. It’s satisfying. And you’re right, it’s something people won’t get until they come to it on their own terms.
At work I routinely do laborious tasks the rest of my team procrastinates due to how repetitive and annoying it is. And often it’s with a command or two. It feels quite powerful. And it’s so flexible how you can combine languages and tools! It’s also just interesting to be reminded how all the basic problems were solved by the 1970s when a lot of these tools were created.
My guy, it’s because you’re the vegans of tech.
Nobody cares. It doesn’t need to be your personality.
I feel like a lot more people be comfortable using the terminal if the text displayed when it was first opened gave you a list of commands to try. There is a very steep initial learning curve immediately which discourages experimentation, and I think that with a little bit of effort you could get a lot of people over that hump and then they could enjoy terminal Bliss.
Just the other day, I was trying to run a CLI program, one I won’t name.
I’m trying out a new immutable distro, and couldn’t install it, so I said hey these new flatpaks are supposed to be all a guy could ever need.
So I downloaded an app that uses this unnamed CLI program as its core. It was a GUI app. And while it worked just fine, I also had very little control over what exactly was gonna happen and how it would happen. I wanted to do some specific things I knew the core program could do, but there was no way to do it.
Eventually I dug deeper and realized I’m an idiot and the CLI program can run without installing it or any dependencies, so it was fine to use natively. I was able to accomplish my task quickly and efficiently after that, happy as a clam.
CLI and GUI both have their place. I prefer GUI most the time, honestly. But having some CLI chops can be extremely useful at times.
meanwhile Windows users: let me drop into this random strangers discord who claims he will make my PC faster by dropping this .bat file that will run thousands of commands to “debloat” my install. also let me edit the registry and add random values to keys that I don’t know what they’re used for. this process is basically irreversible because I will inevitably forget which keys I’ve edited over time, wow windows is so simple and easy and intuitive 🤡
That’s not a windows problem, it’s a user problem. The same scenario could play out with a shell script that modifies a hundred dotfiles. Lots of solutions on Linux help forums are “Paste this into your terminal. Don’t forget the sudo!”
I actually used to make backups (Export) of each edited key and keep them in folders with context, so I could later look them up or even set them again in case of a reinstall.
Now, they are lying, forgotten, on some NTFS drive that I haven’t opened in years.
I wonder if registry keys can be set with an ansible script? Granted, that is still not as nice as a declarative config (yay NixOS), but better than having to write down and do by hand again on a new install
yeah,
reg set <key> <value>i think it is
Amen. I remember having to frequently reinstall the system to keep it performant. Thanks windows rot.
I used to reinstall Windows once a year. Now with Debian stable I just fix the problem if there is any and that’s it.
GUI is a generic swiss army knife. It’s easy to introduce to someone, and it has a whole array of tools ready for use. However, each of those tools is only half-decent at its job at best, and all of the tools are unwieldy. The manual is included, but it mostly tells you how to do things that are pretty obvious.
CLI is a toolbox full of quality tools and gadgets. Most people who open the box for the first time don’t even know which tools they’re looking for. In addition, each tool has a set of instructions that must be followed to a T. Those who know how to use the tools can get things done super quickly, but those who don’t know will inevitably cause some problems. Oh, but the high-detail manuals for all the tools are in the side compartment of the toolbox too.
I’m more impressed that they can use a gamepad for CLI input.
You may not like it but that’s how peak productivity looks like.
/s
As a Steam Deck user, using a CLI with a gamepad is definitely doable but it is an unpleasant experience.
