- cross-posted to:
- privacy@lemmy.ca
- cross-posted to:
- privacy@lemmy.ca
cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/15995282
Real unfortunate news for GrapheneOS users as Revolut has decided to ban the use of ‘non-google’ approved OSes. This is currently being posted about and updated by GrahpeneOS over at Bluesky for those who want to follow it more closely.
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This sounds like an antitrust legal problem…
The GrapheneOS team is already talking to regulators: https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/112539378681400395
the problem here is not the banks or apps, the problem is Google Play Integrity API, which is supposed to enforce to run apps in secured phones and it is used to ban secured ROMs such as GrapheneOS and it allows to run apps on outdated phones without security patches.
Oh, the banks and regulators are to blame. Especially in Europe.
Find me a PSD2 bank bank that doesn’t require a phone number
In this case, thanks to regulation, it seems GrapheneOS team is talking with European Commission about this problem with Play Integrity API https://fosstodon.org/@GrapheneOS@grapheneos.social/113623767380032309 and the only hope is a movement of the regulator against this policy of Google.
So the Play Integrity API is literally why I moved to iOS. My bank apps didn’t work with Lineage and the stock OnePlus ROM just sucked ass after the ColorOS or whatever update. I figured I might as well go iOS if I can’t have a custom ROM anyway, and so far it has indeed been a much nicer experience than stock Android. If you can’t TRULY customize everything, might as well at least get stability and consistency out of it, right? Plus at the time, there wasn’t a single Android OEM out there with truly long OS update support.
Anyway, if this succeeds and custom ROMs are considered to have sound integrity, I might just move back to Android. Graphene seems cool, I haven’t tried it yet because I’ve never owned a Pixel.
How would iOS be better? There is not blob-free, secure version on their devices at all. Right?
It’s not for privacy. But without access to custom ROMs, Android is shit.
Sure, but the ROMs is what makes Android a more secure platform
Sure, but my point was if you can’t even use ROMs because then you lose access to your bank (and now McD apparently), there’s much less reason to use Android - certainly was so 2.5 years ago when they were mostly all promising 2-3 years of support for flagship devices and Apple had a track record of 6-7 years.
So that’s why it works on lineage? They seem to get around this somehow
It runs in Lineage? Lineage is certified by Google Play Integrity API (I doubt it)? or Lineage tricks Google Play Integrity API?
Yes. These apps work and bank apps work fine. Netflix works too.
There are only problems with a bunch of applications that recently decided to use Play Integrity API not with every banking app nor Netflix.
This is the list: https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-guide#apps-banning-grapheneos
In fact those applications should not work with Lineage unless Play Integrity API is patched/cracked someway in Lineage.
Authy in that list works fine too
which is supposed to enforce to run apps in secured phones
The point of the Google Play Integrity API is to ensure that the user is not in control of their phone, but that one of a small number of megacorps are in control.
Can the user pull their data out of apps? Not acceptable. Can the user access the app file itself? Not acceptable. Can the user modify apps? Not acceptable.
Basically it ensures that the user has no control over their own computing.
It’s simply the “secure” isn’t meant for users but the cooperations. Make it “secure” to their business.
It’s used to help secure the businesses app yes. It helps with things like preventing resource abuse which would cost the company money. E.g. querying mass amounts of data on a loop to increase the companies bill.
If you install GrapheneOS, you do not need root, so GrapheneOS is in control of the phone not the user. The key here is if GrapheneOS is secure enough to be certified by Google Play Integrity API. is it security or other issue? perhaps Google is not supporter of FOSS ROMs, perhaps it is not fun of how GrapheneOS removes permissions to Google Apps, …
If it is not security, this is a kind of monopoly to control which ROMs are allowed to run apps.
Revolut works fine for me still on Graphene?
Try logging in and out. (Though dont blame me if u can’t log in again).
copy that - thanks for the hint. honestly, if it doesn’t work in the future, I’ll probs just cancel my account with them
But like, why?
Fuxk u
He makes a solid point
Time to switch away from Auth I guess. Not even using GrapheneOS cause I have a Samsung phone, but this is not acceptable
Give Aegis a try, it is great.
Switched to Ente Auth when Authy stopped having a free desktop version. What if I lose my phone? I want both my devices to have access to my codes.
I wish aegis had a UI like that… I prefer it to Aegis “Normal” view. They’re almost the same but ente is a little better
Aegis is also nice
I don’t know if this is standard on all authenticator apps or not but I like the fact that Ageis makes you enter your password once in a while so you don’t forget it.
same. i wish i could run graphene or something similar on my moto G stylus. I wish my Pixel 6, 7 and 6a didnt all have defects. the 7 was my favourite.
Authy is no good anyway. Keeps codes hostage with no way to back them up. So many great open source alternatives
Just to be clear, they banned all custom roms, not only graphene.
It’s crazy how they can just do illegal things because they have so much money…
Do I own my phone or not??
Most ROMs like LineageOS and CalyxOS drastically weaken the security of Android, so that would actually make sense. GrapheneOS has far better security than AOSP, the Stock Pixel OS, or basically every other version of Android that you would find pre-loaded on a device. https://grapheneos.org/features#exploit-protection
Most ROMs like LineageOS and CalyxOS drastically weaken the security of Android
Source?
Graphene shills have been banging on this point for donkey’s ages. Reality is that many people use phones that are out of OEM support and many OEM ROMs are bundled with questionable software (Oppo, Samsung etc.) There are some decent criticisms to be made about LineageOS, but others to be made about Grapheme, like its Google-suggestive configurations, which is quite bad for security and privacy. Graphene says this is all optional and not part of the OS, but doesn’t include any equivalent F-Droid installer.
Yeah. As much as I love GrapheneOS and all the security work, sometimes I feel like their “ideal” setup is to just install GrapheneOS on the latest Pixel phone and use only the 5 or so built in apps, as everything else is insecure, brings additional code baggage and can introduce flaws. I don’t think anyone can live like that.
Would not updating Revolut keep the app compatible as long as you don’t sign out?
If so, don’t update the app and write down the build number of the last app version which worked on GrapheneOS. That way you would have a bit more time to sort things out.
They constantly force you to update or the app won’t work. I was already having issues with Revolut on GrapheneOS so I just closed my account and switched to Wise. The Revolut app was a bloated mess anyway.
Yupp thinking about doing the same, but want to wait a little to see if wise decides to do the same…
Guess I’ll have to follow suit, because I’d love to switch to graphene OS
Odd timing considering I’ve banned McDonalds, Revolut and Authy from my phone.
Can Graphene add a feature to run in emulation mode to allow apps to believe it’s on an unrestricted OS?
Unfortunately, this is probably because of the apps started using the Play Integrity API, which is a hardware-based attestation and can only be faked in two ways that GrapheneOS isn’t interested in:
- you can fake an older device that didn’t support hardware attestation yet, or had a broken implementation
- or you can try getting leaked vendor keys and emulate the crypto with those until they get revoked
Fuck both of these companies. Never used McDicks app in the first place. Spyware bullshit.
The mcdonalds app is a scam to get you to agree to their arbitration clause
Care to elaborate? I’m curious.
Never mind. I found an article pretty quick. Thanks for the heads up anyway. :)
Funny that news nowadays is citing tik tok and reddit comments
https://www.thedailymeal.com/1431937/mcdonalds-app-terms-waive-rights-trial/
I can’t tell you how frustrating it is to not only be subjected to Fox
EntertainmentNews by my family, but to be subjected to their social media segments every 5 minutes (not exaggerating).It feels like when I find those ancient newspaper articles about how so-and-so moved in with her boyfriend before their wedding night or whatever.
Some things never change I guess.
Can you share with the class? (Shit service where I’m at D:)
I dont buy mcdogwater anymore but im interested
https://www.mashed.com/1432093/mcdonalds-new-app-terms-conditions-reactions/
They gave away free chips in exchange of you downloading their app and accepting their shitty conditions.
If a business makes it too difficult to use them I just use someone else. I’m sure they understand that but are making a killing at the expense of other people.
There will come a day when there are no alternatives. Ive hit this in many places (EU banks, dating sites, etc)
This makes me want to use GrapheneOS more. If the dataminers don’t want you to use it then it must be doing something right.
Too bad it only runs on Google’s phones…
It’s only officially supported on google phones because sadly those are the only ones that are not modified to fuck which makes installing and supporting other OS’es way too much work.
Giving google money once for a device is not a problem from a privacy or security standpoint.
Wish they’d at least support Fairphone.
If Graphene reached out to them I bet Fairphone would even actively work with them to make it an official OS option.
Fairphone would need to substantially modify their hardware to make that work
In the EU almost every phone has an unlockable bootloader, there just isn’t any roms or custom recoveries for a lot of them.
Second hand, no money for them
That’s correct, but not the reason grapheneOS chooses only pixel phones. It’s the level of hardware security features.
Also unlockable and presumably has well working builds. It’s not just graphene, but just about every Android project it there that’s best supported on pixels. Other manufacturers have a crazy variety of locking schemes and required tools. Each one is a nightmare to support.
For GrapheneOS, it’s primarily that it’s re-lockable. That’s why other unlockable phones aren’t supported.
The GrapheneOS install process sets new OS signing keys so you can lock the phone again and get full verified boot. However, most manufacturers haven’t implemented this feature.
Yes, that cuts the list down even more.
What do you get, app/feature wise for verified boot vs. Play integrity app? Does it increase the amount of apps that work on it?
No, Play Integrity intentionally checks if it’s a Google-approved key. Android itself has an API to check verified boot and gives info on the signing key - most devs just want to know verified boot is working.
I feel Play Integrity has a short life ahead of if competition authorities realise how exactly it works. “Anti-competitive” is the first thing policy-minded folks think when I explain the API to them.
Right? Have to pay google for the privilege
You can always buy a second hand one
Someone installing graphene os for security shouldn’t be trusting random second/third/etc hand hardware lol
Shouldn’t trust anything then. They could intercept your new phone and modify it. They did it for switches. But your not worth it for “them”.
There is absolutely no problem with that. The phone is wiped and encrypted when you flash graphene, and it does an integrity check every time it boots.
And you can even use the GrapheneOS Auditor app to perform a manual verification of the OS.
Hypothetically the hardware could have been modified, but that would take some insane level of a determined attacker to be fabricating modified pixels just to sell them on the used market.
Yes, this would only be a concern for targeted attacks by state actors, in which case not even buying new would be safe.
Thinking about it, in such a scenario buying used may even be safer
Nothing too hypothetical nor an “insane” level of work. Didn’t Israel do just that with some beepers to blow up children?
It also comes with a hardware auditor, although you need another trusted graphene phone to use it. I don’t know about the details, but sounds very hard to mess with it.
Your options are:
Apple phone
Bloated android phone like Samsung etc.
Chinese android phone (xiami etc)
Google phone with Android
Google phone with graphene. This still looks like the best of those options.
Or no phone? I guess people are hardcore enough that will be the option.
I use cheap motorola phone with lineage OS, add that to your options
I don’t think LOS has any privacy/security improvements over the stock android?
(IIRC) it’s even worse than stock because you can’t lock the bootloader after installation.
Though if your phone isn’t getting official updates, it’s probably safer with LOS.
(IIRC) it’s even worse than stock because you can’t lock the bootloader after installation.
That’s a problem with the phone manufacturer, not with Lineage.
LineageOS itself drastically weakens security even compared to stock AOSP, for example by exposing root access or deploying insecure SELinux policies
Physical access is game over anyway?
Not with GrapheneOS, since you can entirely disable the USB controller from the settings on a driver level, making it impossible to connect the phone to a forensic data extraction device. GrapheneOS also has a convenient auto-reboot feature, which (together with their patches to the Linux kernel and Fastboot recovery OS to include memory zeroing) erases the encryption keys from memory, putting the device in BFU state and requiring the PIN/password to unlock. This is additionally secured by the Titan M2 secure element, which makes use of the Weaver API and drastically throttles brute-force unlock attempts. https://grapheneos.org/faq#encryption
There’s also the Lineage-based DivestOS that attempts to keep up with more security updates, and relocking the bootloader in phones that support it.
Yeah, I myself am using CalyxOS, because DivestOS doesn’t support the Fairphone 5 unfortunately. CalyxOS also has relocking.
Fairphone? Swiftphone? eOS? Linuxphone? PostmarketOS etc?
All of these are insecure as hell. Linux phones especially https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux-phones.html
Fairphone also really fucked up: They signed their own OS with the publicly available (!) AOSP test signing keys. These guys really don’t know that they’re doing, and I would trust their hardware or software whatsoever. And no, installing a custom ROM doesn’t solve this. Considering how bad their security practices are, we genuinely have to assume that there are security issues with the device firmware as well.
/e/OS is based on the already insecure LineageOS, and it weakens the security further, so it’s not a good option either.
None of the options you mentioned can be compared to GrapheneOS. It’s currently the best option if you value your privacy and security. You don’t have to give Google money either, since you can just buy a used device, which is also cheaper and more environmentally friendly. Google also makes repairing their devices pretty easy for consumers and even works with iFixit. Here’s a Mastodon post I recently saw about that: https://social.linux.pizza/@midtsveen/113630773097519792
An used Pixel, assuming I can find one in my country, still costs four (4) times what I need to shell out for a in-market Lineage compatible phone.
Theoretical security is cute, but it has to be adjusted to practical feasibility. The most secure computer in the world is useless to you if you can’t boot it up.
Security-wise you’re better off using whatever OS comes with your device than downgrading to LineageOS. At least most smartphone vendors (except for Fairphone) manage to ship their Stock OS with a locked bootloader and somewhat working Verified Boot.
Is swiftphone its own thing or did you mean shiftphone? I kinda want the shiftphone 8 myself even if they only ship to neighboring countries of mine.
There’s always package forwarding. I’m about to find out how bad an idea that is.
Ah sorry, you’re right. I meant shiftphone.
Xiaomi has the biggest custom ROM scene out there btw despite them trying their hardest to stop bootloader unlocking. You really don’t need to have a company supporting unlocking to make ROMs for them. If they outright block it then that’s an issue.
I read somewhere that on some xiaomi phones in china you need to request it, https://github.com/melontini/bootloader-unlock-wall-of-shame/blob/main/brands/xiaomi/README.md
Apparently, they don’t need my business. Acceptable.
Google has ruined Android by closing it up.
EU needs to step in and force Google to open it up.
While at it, go for Apple’s monopoly as well.
Well, Google is known for destroying its opposition.
This has very little to do with Google. Custom OS’s in general are being restricted by these apps, not Graphene in particular. All custom OS’s and root access devices are inherently less secure, even if they are privacy focused OS’s.
In IT this is called a zero trust. You don’t trust anything you cannot verify yourself. And a user installed OS is not something anyone can verify other than the installing user. Obviously for your own security you have your own zero trust policy if you are using something like Graphene, but these companies aren’t making it more secure for you as a user, they’re covering their asses in case there are holes in security they cannot account for.
I had Custom OSs installed before. My bank works fine, but there are apps that require Google Apps. I’d say that’s got pretty much to do with Google.
You’re implying that Google is causing these apps to not support custom OSs. But it’s literally not true. These apps are just not supporting custom OSs because their businesses don’t want to support non-standard platforms for security purposes. Tons of banks do not support custom OSs. It has nothing to do with Google and everything to do with not trusting the user which is 100% the correct approach for cyber security.
Got it. So it’s something similar to latest security proposals like not letting me download files on Windows because they are not normally downloaded. Or visiting a website with self signed certificates. So it’s more secure.
The apps complain: “You need Google Play services to use this app”.
So it’s about security. Right. What kind of security does McDonaldss need? Does it need security for their coupons?
Besides that, I thought payment gateway provided very good security by themselves.
But let’s steer from what happens on mainstream apps a little.
Isn’t Google Wallet or Online payments insecure too? Don’t they have tons security failures also? Human security failures, like if someone robs my phone and my info they would have access to my money?
Google and the smartphone industry employ accelerometers and other methods to make sure robbers can’t get to the system. They admit themselves that the systems aren’t safe and they’re working on AI and electronic methods to avoid access to sensitive information.
Is this the security you’re talking about? Maybe we should just steer the industry another way, like those Custom OSs do. Alternatives aren’t security potential threats. They’re the solution for the problem.
Making a monopoly based on making it “safe” isn’t secure at all.
It’s not for your security. It’s for the company’s security. You’re really dense you know that. This is not about you and it’s not about Google. What I’m saying is, people suck ass. So to protect themselves from people sucking ass, they restrict access to their system to their terms. Completely fair if you ask me.
You can go cry Google bad all you want. I might even agree Google is bad. But this is not a Google thing. It’s an IT security thing. The banks and MFA providers are security first businesses. They will make the decision that protect them first and it makes sense for them to do so. If you owned a bank, there is a high likelihood you would make similar decisions that end users don’t quite understand.
As far as McDonald’s is concerned, who the fuck knows what their developers are doing. That app is trash anyways.
perhaps dial back the attitude a bit there? if you think you know better than someone (even if you’re wrong), then you should have no trouble kindly educating instead of insulting them.
you may also wish to revisit your highly questionable claim that graphene properly configured on pixel is less secure than stock rom on some random android device.
It’s not questionable at all to assume that a user rooting and installing their own OS is a security risk. That’s the entire premise of zero trust. I’m sure Graphene OS is secure and better for user privacy when configured properly. But you can’t trust that an end user will configure it properly. That’s what I am saying and have been saying since the first message. You can’t trust the user to be security minded. Ultimately, the best thing you can do as a developer or a business is support a known quantity of software and hardware configurations and that likely means only supporting OEM installed ROMs.
